Owner: Shuck and Jive URL:http://shuckandjive.blogspot.com/ Join Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:57:00 -0600 Rating:0 Site Description: A Presbyterian minister blogs about spirituality, culture, religion (both organized and disorganized), life, evolution, literature, Jesus and lightening up. John Shuck is the pastor of the First Presbyterian Church of Elizabethton, Tennessee (a liberal ch Site statistics:Click here
How Important is the Afterlife to Your Faith? 2007-03-12 17:06:00 I have noticed a change in funeral and memorial services. Many people request of me that they don't want a funeral but a celebration of life service for their loved ones. When they say funeral they usually mean some kind of sermon that speaks about heaven and hell that you often find in the Bible Belt. Instead they want to acknowledge the life of the person and celebrate that. I notice in this trend that people seem less concerned about the fate of their soul/consciousness after death and more concerned with life itself--this life. Personally, I find this to be a healthy trend.Yet Christianity has often focused on the afterlife as being its central concern, particularly avoiding hell and getting into heaven. Many people in the church and without have left that notion behind as a relic of a superstitious past. So what is Christianity without a focus on the afterlife? What does Resurrection symbolize if it is not interwoven with the afterlife?I addressed this issue in one of Read more:Faith
The Most Important Question 2007-03-12 03:01:00 I grew up in church. I remember on many occasions being told that the most important question in life is, "If you were to die today, are you sure you will go to heaven?" It is a question many folks where I live think is the most important question. The question leads eventually to adopting the theory of substitutionary atonement, reciting the sinner's prayer and so forth.I no longer think that this the most important question. I had doubts that it was terribly important even as a child. Nevertheless, church and peer pressure, my own sense of eight-year-old guilt and a desire to please led me to pray the sinner's prayer, receive Jesus into my heart, get baptized, and become a tract carrying ambassador for "the most important question." Today, this question doesn't even make my long list. I think it is a silly question and a distracting question from the far more critical questions of life.What are the most important questions for us as individuals, as the church, and as a Read more:Question
Recommended Resurrection Reading 2007-03-11 17:54:00 If like me you find yourself puzzling over the mystery of Resurrection
, you might appreciate as I did this book by John Shelby Spong. His work is entitled Resurrection: Myth or Reality? Here are some good quotes from it and my comments:Biblical higher criticism is preserved in the particular enclave of academic Christian scholarship and is thought to be too unfruitful to share with the average pew-sitter, for it raises more questions than the church can adequately answer. So the leaders of the church would protect the simple believers from concepts they were not trained to understand. In this way that ever-widening gap between academic Christians and the average pew-sitter made its first appearance. p. 12Now that is the truth. The message I received in seminary was this: In order not to upset the faith of your parishioners don't bother talking about higher criticism. Just tell the story. Neo-orthodoxy and narrative preaching allowed the preacher to simply tell "the story" whe Read more:Reading
Go Vols! 2007-03-14 17:32:00 I took this photo today of my colleague's sign board. Harvest Baptist is just down the street from us. It is March Madness and everyone in East Tennessee is a Vols fan (or at least is a Vols fan in public). The Tennessee Volunteers are fifth in the South bracket. They'll be going all the way to heaven.Deadline is tomorrow at noon to play Hoops Bracket Challenge. April DeConick has finished her book on the Gospel of Judas and has emerged from the tomb she tells us on her blog. Now, she is ready to take on the Talpiot Tomb issue. She put a good post about it today, with the suggestion that scholars take this on at some sort of formal discussion.
Pray for Peace 2007-03-14 13:42:00 Tuesday, March 20th, 2007, is the fourth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq. On March 19th the eve of the anniversary of war, there will be prayer vigils held to bring in the dawn of peace. ConcernedTNCitizens and DemocracyNowTri-cities have locations of events. There will be vigils in Johnson City, Kingsport, Jonesborough, Bristol, Abingdon, VA, and Emory, VA. We will hold a vigil in Elizabethton as well at our church.Seven church members and myself leave tomorrow morning for Washington D.C. to participate in the Christian Peace
Witness for Iraq. Please keep us and all of the participants in your thoughts.If Peace Should Dieby Terry WilburCry death and doom and let the maidens wailWhen men of power turn a deafened earAs howling dogs imperil all the landAnd still they never see the danger nearCry woe and mourn for peace that shall not beMake haste to bring the virgins to the dustFor men forsake the truth and practice warAnd all around they feed upon their lustCry misery and pa
Esoterics in the Attic 2007-03-14 01:01:00 One of our church members, John Nash, is the author of two books,The Quest for the Souland The Soul and Its Destiny.He is about ready to go to print with a history of Christianity. I will let you know when it is released. John is also the editor of an on-line magazine, The Esoteric Quarterly. Here is the description from its webpage:The Esoteric Quarterly is an online journal published by the School for Esoteric Studies. It provides a medium for the dissemination of high-quality articles on esoteric philosophy and its applications to individual and group service and to the expansion of human consciousness. If you are an author with this type of interest, you can submit an article. Here are the guidelines:The Esoteric Quarterly solicits high-quality articles on esoteric philosophy and its applications to individual or group service and to the expansion of human consciousness. Topics may relate to either the eastern or western esoteric tradition. Examples of the Read more:Attic
Two-Body Resurrection 2007-03-15 05:19:00 I am attempting to make my way through The Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond the Grave edited by Robert M. Price and Jeffrey Jay Lowder. It is a pretty heady work. It includes contributions by a variety of scholars in order to deal with questions regarding the historicity of the resurrection. One particular article I mention today is by Richard C. Carrier, "The Spiritual Body of Christ." I like it when authors put their theses statements in the first couple of paragraphs. Here is Carrier's:Christianity probably began, and was taken up and preached by Paul the Apostle, with a different idea of the resurrection than is claimed today. The evidence suggests the first Christians, at least up to and including Paul, thought Christ's "soul" was taken up to heaven and clothed in a new body, after leaving his old body in the grave forever. The subsequent story, that Jesus actually walked out of the grave with the same body that went into it, leaving an empty tomb to astonish all, was probably Read more:Resurrection
Christian Peace Witness Today 2007-03-16 15:29:00 We are in Alexandria, ready to cross the river into D.C. to participate in the ChristianPeaceWitness
for Iraq. Six of us from First Pres., Elizabethton are here. We are going to get on the D.C. Metro, "The Peace Train" and to into the city in a few minutes. We will be taking the non-violent action training today from 1:30-3:30. Worship at the National Cathedral tonight at 7 p.m. followed by a candlelight witness to the White House. Don't forget all the peace events locally including our peace vigil Sunday at the church at 7 p.m. Check DemocracyNowTricities and ConcernedTNCitizens for other events.Keep the Peace,john Read more:Today
The Iraq War: Immoral, Illegal, and Unjust 2007-03-18 02:40:00 Jordan Schmidt, of Leesburg, Va., an anti-war protester, holds a candlelight vigil with others outside the White House in Washington, Friday, March 16, 2007. An estimated 3,000 protesters march from the National Cathedral to the White House to protest the military presence in Iraq
and Afghanistan. (AP Photo/Lawrence Jackson) (Lawrence Jackson - AP)We just returned from Washington D.C. from the Christian Peace Witness for Iraq. I will put up some of my own pics in the next couple of days. It began with non-violent direct action training followed by a service at the National Cathedral. Estimated attendance was 2,825 at the powerful worship service. Volunteers estimated about 2/3 marched down Massachusetts Avenue to the White House. About 200 or so decided on a planned arrest to raise awareness. It was cold, rainy, and snowy. I think they had planned on about 5,000 but the weather turned many away. Yet, I was amazed and impressed with the number of people who marched despite th Read more:Immoral
Peace Witness: Part Two 2007-03-19 13:29:00 Doug King, the Web Weaver for Witherspoon Society posted a nice summary of his experience at the Christian PeaceWitness
for Iraq over the weekend. He also includes some other reports including the sermon I preached on Sunday. Here are a few pics from our trip.(Counter-clockwise: Betsy, me, Kathe, Aubrie, Nancy, Nance getting fortified)Practicing the "Hassle Line" (Is non-violence supposed to be this fun?)On the way to the National CathedralEveryone has a smile and a button!You can order one for yourself from the Mennonite Church (USA)Be warned! You may become what you wear!Nearly 3,000 worshipped here on Friday Night.Nancy and Aubrie on the 3.4 mile march from the Cathedral down Massachussetts Avenue to the White House. About 2,000 people joined in the march.There were a lot of people!I like this cartoon special effect. The Washington Monument and the White House is in the distance.More pics later! Don't forget the peace vigil tonight at 7 p.m.! Read more:Part Two
Peace Witness 2007-03-18 18:06:00 Here is a pic I took of the National Cathedral on Friday. I told the story of our trip to D.C. in my sermon today. The sermon will be on-line in a day or two. I will take excerpts from it and share some pictures with the story.At this point I want to remind folks about the various peace vigils that will be happening in and around the tricities area this weekend.Here are some pics in yesterday's Johnson City Press regarding the peace demonstration on Roan and Mountcastle.We will have a peace vigil at First Pres. Monday night. Join us or attend one of the others in the area. ConcernedTNCitizens and DemocracyNowtricities has information about other peace vigils.This is part of the sermon I preached this morning:"What profit is there for the person who gains the world but gives up her soul?" --Jesus I have been against this war in Iraq since its inception. I have been against it not because of my political beliefs. I have been against it not because of my knowledge of strategy Read more:Peace
, Witness
Putting the Peaces Together 2007-03-20 21:24:00 Here are some more sites about last night's peace vigils and the Christian Peace Witness for Iraq. Click the pic to the right for a great video of the Peace Witness in DC by Yet Another Unitarian Universalist. The video captures the spirit of the event, the singing, the cheering, the feeling of people empowered.Thanks to Blogging Faith for a roundup of blogs and links including this Fox5 news coverage on YouTube.ConcernedTNCitizens has a recap of vigils in the area last night. The Johnson City Press covered the vigil in Johnson City.We have pictures of the vigil at Elizabethton on the church's website. Nancy Barrigar put a great story to the pictures of our trip to DC for the Christian Peace Witness. Go here for those. This one is my personal favorite. I don't think I have ever seen such a huge shrimp. Nance made peace with it...before she ate it. Read more:Putting
Peace Vigil 2007-03-20 14:30:00 Here is a pic of last night's peace vigil in front of the church. I am on the left reading the names of the Tennessee soldiers (women and men) killed since the invasion four years ago. We paused after each name was read and said together, "We remember you."I am against this war. I think it is wrong. I have deep respect, admiration, and gratitude for our armed forces and their families. On this day, the fourth anniversary of the invasion, I remember all of you who are serving. Be safe. Read more:Peace
, Vigil
The Just War 2007-03-20 02:04:00 Justice and Peace KissTwenty-three of us gathered in Elizabethton tonight for the peace vigil. Pictures will be on the church website soon. On the eve of the fourth anniversary of the illegal, immoral, and unjust invasion of Iraq by the United States, people around the country and around the world are increasing their efforts to end this war. Congress can do it. But they need to know that we want it ended.Christianity in the United States largely serves as the civil religion for the American Empire. As such it gives the current administration religious legitimacy to its foreign entanglements. But there are dissenters. Christianity also has a prophetic stream.At the Christian Peace Witness for Iraq worship service, Jim Wallis of Sojourners gave the Call to Action. He said,For all of us here tonight, the war in Iraq has become a matter of faith.By our deepest convictions about Christian standards and teaching, the war in Iraq was not just a well-intended mistake or only misman
Jazz Concert and Jazz Worship 2007-03-22 05:03:00 This is a reminder for the jazz concert and jazz worship service this weekend at the hippest church in the Tricities, First Presbyterian Church of Elizabethton! The hottest date in Northeast Tennessee is Saturday night at 119 West F Street in Elizabethton at 7:30 with Rick Simerly and his buds. Check here and here for the details.And, I just put the bulletin together for Sunday. It is a jazz worship service with Rick and the band at eleven a.m. It ain't your father's church service (although I bet he'll like it too). Here are just some of the songs the band will play and to which we will groove:I Want Jesus to Walk With MeAmazing GraceOh When the Saints Go Marching InThe sermon is entitled, "Letting Go of Standing Still" continuing the Lenten theme of beliefs to let go in order to grow. Check us out and invite your friends! Read more:Concert
Personal Stories from Christian Peace Witness 2007-03-21 21:33:00 The Presbyterian News Service has posted What Church Should Be that contains stories of people who went to Washington D.C. One story involves four college kids from Spokane who wrecked their car, hitchhiked the rest of the way, went straight to the Cathedral, marched, and got arrested for divine disobedience! That's a full day. Here is the story.Whitworth College students, from left, Nicola Crawford, Zach Dahmen, Michael Vander Giessen, and 2006 graduate Eric Colby, drove 2,700 miles across the country to participate in the March 16 ChristianPeaceWitness
for Iraq. Photo by Eva Stimson.Author of that story, Eva Stimson, also wrote this piece, Thousands Gather in Washington for Ecumenical War Protest:WASHINGTON — Calling the war in Iraq “an offense against God” and warning that America is in danger of losing its soul, speakers at an ecumenical “Christian Peace Witness for Iraq” in Washington, D.C., March 16 drew thunderous applause.(Read More) The Presbyterian Outlook Read more:Personal
, Stories
"Shock and Awe" Four Years Later 2007-03-21 14:17:00 Fires rage in Baghdad as U.S.-led coalition forces attack the cityTime Magazine has a recap via pictures and quotes of the Iraq War, Four Years
in Iraq.You can see more links to press coverage here of the Christian Peace Witness for Iraq.Thanks to Faithful Agitation for the link to the National Cathedral's website. You can watch the worship service, download the bulletin, purchase a DVD of the service, see some photos, etc. like the one below. In response to the evil of shock and awe, people are responding with truth and love: Read more:Shock
, Four Years
Sojourners on Christian Peace Witness 2007-03-22 19:47:00 I just received my Sojourners e-mail and in it are links to all the speeches given at the worship service at the National Cathedral and pictures of the service, march and vigil. If you go to Sojo news you should get just about everything. This is the blog of Jim Wallis, God's Politics.This is the link to Sojourners Magazine.I only had one beef with the otherwise incredibly prophetic call to action by Rev. Wallis. Here is the portion that caused me to wince:Ironically, this war has often been cloaked in the name and symbols of our faith, confused American imperial designs with God’s purposes, and tragically discredited Christian
faith around the world, having so tied it to flawed American behavior and agendas. Millions of people around the world sadly believe this is a Christian war. So as people of faith, let us say tonight to our brothers and sisters around the world, and as clearly as we can – America is not the hope of the earth and the light of the world, Jesus Christ is!I Read more:Peace
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Oh, Bury Me Not... 2007-03-22 17:15:00 Oh, bury me not on the lone prairieThese words came low and mournfullyFrom the pallid lips of a youth who layOn his dying bed at the close of dayOh, bury me not and his voice failed thereBut we took no heed to his dying prayerIn a shallow grave just six by threeWe buried him there on the lone prairie.--Johnny Cash, "Oh, Bury Me Not"I have been following James Tabor's blog with interest. I have read his book the Jesus Dynasty (and have reviewed it here).I have also read the book by Simcha Jacobovici and Charles Pellegrino The Jesus Family Tomb. This book tells the story of the making of the DVD with a lot more information. It is great fun!I am finding this whole thing fascinating. What is fascinating is not only the discovery itself, but the hoopla surrounding it. It is vicious out there! But through it all, Tabor is cool and professional. His post today demonstrates that. In an essay he addresses two common objections to the Talpiot Tomb being the tomb of Jesus and fam
The Spirituality of Peace 2007-03-24 16:11:00 Jim Dahlman of the Johnson City Press has a nice column in today's paper about the peace movement in East Tennessee. In Spiritual Finds Spot in Vigils About War he observed the spiritual aspect to the peace vigils held this past week. This is the conclusion of his column:But even people who don’t consider themselves religious recognized some kind of spiritual dimension to the war and their protests. Steven Denton, for instance, calls the war a “moral-politicalethical issue” because of its heavy costs. “What could we have done with that money, not to mention the loss of lives, the cost of taking care of the wounded?” he asked. This is a spiritual matter “on a human level — and a humane level.”Several participants sounded similar notes that night. While the war isn’t necessarily a religious issue for them, at least in the formal sense, neither is it a mere matter of partisan politics. Their protests apparently rise from a deeper source. “A person’s faith Read more:Spirituality
, Peace
Jazzin In Elizabethton 2007-03-24 08:35:00 Hi Folks! We are jazzin' tonight with Rick Simerly and the band at 7:30 at First Pres., Elizabethton
. Get there early. It will be a great concert! Sunday morn we jazz again. The band is playing a jazz worship service at 11:00 a.m. The sermon topic is "Letting Go of Staying Still" in my Lenten "Beliefs to Let Go in Order to Grow" series. For a preview of Palm/Passion Sunday, my sermon title is "Letting Go of the 'Good' in 'Good Friday.'" This will be about, among other things, moving beyond the need for doctrines such as substitutionary atonement. For Easter, the sermon is entitled, "What if We Found the Body of Jesus?" We will explore the power of the symbol of Resurrection without resorting to literalism.
Constantine's Sword 2007-03-23 14:09:00 As we approach Holy Week, we will hear and in some cases preach sermons about the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem, his last week there, his execution, and the "meaning" of the cross. I am in the process of reading James Carroll's, Constantine
's Sword
This is a book that should make Christians think twice about calling the execution of Jesus, "Good Friday." Carroll takes us through the history of the church's attitudes and actions toward Jews arguing that anti-semitism is at the root of our Christian conviction. He begins by reflecting on the cross at Auschwitz. Why is a cross there? Should there be? What does it mean for Jews?Reckoning with this work will be on my agenda as I seek to construct my own theology for the twenty-first century. Here is an excerpt from his book:Perhaps the voice a troubled Christian most needs to hear is that of the Jew who says the Holocaust must be made to teach nothing. "What consequences, then, are to be drawn
The Truth and 9/11 2007-03-27 00:37:00 Sandra Garrett of ConcernedTNCitizens just sent this information. This is from Dr. Joseph Fitsanakis: Many of y'all probably don't know that, in addition to standing on street corners holding peace signs, I live a parallel life as a political scientist. Some of the research I've undertaken in the past concerns the controversial relationship between successive US governments and al-Qaeda prior to "9-11". On Thursday, March 29, at 7:30 p.m., I will be presenting some of my research findings at King College in Bristol. This event is sponsored by a student World Affairs organization, and it is free and open to the public. I invite all of you to make the trip to King College for this presentation and discussion. I guarantee that it'll be worth the trip! Below aredirections to the event, as well as a blurb by the sponsors about the talk.WHAT: Talk "The US Relationship with al-Qaeda Prior to 9/11"WHEN: Thursday 29 March, 7:30 p.m.WHERE: King College, Kline Hall rm 122.COST: FreeIt is sa Read more:Truth
Good Friday is Not Good 2007-03-26 05:47:00 April Fool's Day is Palm Sunday. On the liturgical calendar it is called Palm/Passion Sunday. The change came because with decreased attendance at Good Friday
services, folks would jump from the triumphal entry to the resurrection and miss the crucifixion. The clergy thought that folks really should hear the crucifixion story so on Palm/Passion Sunday you may hear both the triumphal entry and the passion story in one.My sermon for this Palm/Passion Sunday is entitled "Letting Go of the "Good" in Good Friday." It is the next installment in my Lenten series of sermons regarding beliefs to let go in order to grow. I and I imagine others have let go of the need for substitutionary atonement. This is the idea that Christ dying on the cross was part of God's plan. Here is the story in a nutshell:Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the garden. In so doing they sinned. They committed the original sin. By sinning they dishonored God and could not be in God's presence. So they were cast from the ga
Should the Bible be Taught in Public Schools? 2007-03-28 05:40:00 The cover story of this week's Time Magazine touches an issue that has been dear to my heart. Should the Bible be taught in public schools? If you have been reading this blog for any length of time, you know that I am a liberal. I have been critical of fundamentalism and the emerging theocracy in our nation. So why would I argue for the Bible in public schools? Here are my answers, bullet by bullet:What you do not know can and will be used against you. How can we expect our students to deal with the nonsense of creationism, for instance, if they do not have a basic understanding of the argument? A sixth grader with average to above average intelligence could read the Genesis stories and see that they are mythological, unless of course they never read the Genesis stories. The Bible is used as a weapon against gays. "The Bible says" we are told. Read the darn thing. Hardly a word is mentioned about gays in the Bible.It is the classic of Western civilization. As the artic Read more:Public
, Schools
, Public Schools
Jazz Worship and Other Jazz 2007-03-28 00:48:00 We had a great concert Saturday night and Jazz Worship Sunday morning. Rick Simerly--trombone, Fred Goodwin--bass, Eddie Dalton--drums, Todd Wright--alto, and Andy Page--guitar.It was hot! More pics will be on the church's web page in a day or two as well as the sermon.We ended with "Oh When the Saints Go Marching In" with some different lyrics. One our church members led us spontaneously in a parade.When the rich go out and workWhen the rich go out and workOh Lord I want to be in that numberWhen the Saints go marching inWhen the air is pure and cleanWhen the air is pure and cleanOh Lord I want to be in that numberWhen the Saints go marching inWhen we all have food to eatWhen we all have food to eatOh Lord I want to be in that numberWhen the Saints go marching inWhen our leaders learn to cryWhen our leaders learn to cryOh Lord I want to be in that numberWhen the Saints go marching inSunday's Walking Across America cartoon was a keeper. Good work Paul.I found a few new blogs that
Who Killed Jesus? 2007-03-27 12:19:00 Three years ago, in response to the article I wrote for the local paper, many in my congregation raised some questions about the death of Jesus
and what I thought it meant. I put together a little question and answer essay. This is where I was three years ago. I think I have moved somewhat since then. Here is the beginning of that essay. The full essay is on my church's webpage.Who killed Jesus? Historical evidence suggests that he was executed on a Roman cross. What was the motivation to kill Jesus? Romans crucified to demonstrate their sovereignty. This is what happens to trouble-makers. Romans crucified to keep the peace; that is, peace through superior firepower. Who else might have wanted Jesus dead? The temple authorities, perhaps. Jesus was accused of blasphemy (perhaps warranted). He challenged the “brokering system” of religion by breaking religious laws. He did things for people (ie. forgive sins) that should only be done through proper channels. Any Read more:Killed
Recommended Holy Week Reading 2007-03-29 19:14:00 Our Thursdays With Jesus study group is reading and discussing Marcus Borg's latest, Jesus: Uncovering the Life, Teachings, and Relevance of a Religious Revolutionary. This is an excellent summary of Borg's thought about Jesus. I especially appreciate his understanding of the last week of Jesus in Jerusalem.Borg and John Dominic Crossan provided a more complete look at the last week of Jesus (according to Mark) in The Last Week: A Day-by-Day Account of Jesus's Final Week in Jerusalem.Next week beginning on Sunday, I will post day by day readings from Mark's Gospel and present Borg and Crossan's interpretations and my own thoughts.In addition, I appreciate the insights of James Tabor in his book The Jesus Dynasty.Borg and Crossan have a different view of Jesus than Tabor, but I think they are similar in that they all write that Jesus knew what he was doing when he led his anti-imperial parade and turned over tables in the Temple.The Church tends to miss the very political messa Read more:Reading
Checking in on the Tomb 2007-03-29 03:23:00 On Sunday, I am going to lead the adult forum with a presentation on the Talpiot Tomb. It is interesting to observe over the internet the responses to this. Here is my summary of the various responses.1) No way. It can't be Jesus because he rose from the dead. His body cannot be found. With this view, no matter what evidence could ever be presented, it would have to be dismissed because it challenges faith claims.2) No way. Jesus didn't even exist. His body cannot be found. It would be like finding Noah's ark or the Garden of Eden. The Gospels are fictions and have no factual basis whatsoever. Again, no matter what evidence could ever be presented, it would be dismissed because of prior claims.3) No way. Jesus was a peasant. His body cannot be found. He was too poor to have had a burial. His body, like the thousands of others who were crucified, would have been picked at by buzzards and eventually eaten by dogs. No matter the evidence, it would be dismissed beca
Sometimes I wish I was a RevGal 2007-03-31 08:22:00 Do you notice the difference between clergy boy bloggers and clergy girl bloggers? There really is a difference. The clergy boy bloggers are like snarling packs of wild dogs verbally ripping at each other's throats. In contrast, the clergy girl bloggers talk about practical, helpful things. They blog about life as a whole, rather than useless theological or political abstractions (like I post about). Even though they may differ politically or theologically, they bond. Take for instance, the Friday Five thing they have going. They learn about each other and they actually become friends. It's fun! Of course, I don't really know how fun it is. I just see them having fun.I have to say I have RevGal envy. I don't envy everything. I don't envy lower than average salaries than the clergy boys, or the difficulty getting ordained into the clergy boy's club, or the glass ceilings which makes it really tough getting head of staff positions in the tall steeple churches, or th Read more:Sometimes
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